PA_System
Senior Member
Polish
- Feb 15, 2021
- #1
Topic sentence: Steiner was recognized as an original if unorthodox thinker.
Copied from title. Cagey, moderator
Hi,
The sentence from the thread title comes from the Cambridge dictionary; it's a sample sentence they provide when you look up the word unorthodox.
Now, I know the word if introduces contrast, the meaning of "despite being", when it's placed directly before an adjective, e.g. She was honest, if a little brutal. However, I can't see how original and unorthodox can be juxtaposed like this. Don't they actually stand for something similar?
Could you share your thoughts and shed some light on the issue?
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grassy
Senior Member
Warsaw
Polish
- Feb 15, 2021
- #2
I think it does expresses contrast/concession there. Original is positive and unorthodox is neutral bordering on negative.
E
exgerman
Senior Member
NYC
US English
- Feb 15, 2021
- #3
An original thinker is almost by definition unorthodox --- it's a tautology. So original if unorthodox sounds very strange
f you are willing to say the same thing twice, you can say original and unorthodox.
S
serbianfan
Senior Member
British English
- Feb 15, 2021
- #4
I don't agree that they mean more or less the same. If your idea is unorthodox, many people will find it strange and maybe disagree with it. If your idea is original, there's no such connotation.
A
ain'ttranslationfun?
Senior Member
US English
- Feb 15, 2021
- #5
serbianfan said:
I don't agree that they mean more or less the same. If your idea is unorthodox, many people will find it strange and maybe disagree with it. If your idea is original, there's no such connotation.
I'm not sure that some — dare I say 'hidebound'? — people wouldn't find any original idea 'strange' and instinctively disagree with it. :-(
İlham07
New Member
Turkish
- Jul 28, 2021
- #6
Hello,I just wanted to ask what "if" means in the following sentence.
Steiner was recognized as an original if unorthodox thinker.
Thanks for your attention!
cidertree
Senior Member
Gran Canaria
English - exIreland
- Jul 28, 2021
- #7
It means "
even though/
albeit".
İlham07
New Member
Turkish
- Jul 28, 2021
- #8
thanks
L
Leeeroy
Senior Member
Polish - Poland
- Jul 28, 2021
- #9
...although somewhat unorthodox
There's usually a comma before that "if" IIRC. Also, aren't original and unorthodox (near-)synonyms? Hm. Really makes me think they meant to put "and" in there but something went wrong.
kentix
Senior Member
English - U.S.
- Jul 28, 2021
- #10
It does seem curious. You can't be unoriginal and unorthodox.
E
Edinburgher
Senior Member
Scotland
German/English bilingual
- Jul 28, 2021
- #11
Leeeroy said:
There's usually a comma before that "if"
Sometimes, yes. I wouldn't go so far as to say "usually". It can be dispensed with in such short constructions as here.
If one were to put one in, I'd argue for a second one
unorthodox, thus basically treating "if unorthodox" as a parenthetical insertion.
Leeeroy said:
Also, aren't original and unorthodox (near-)synonyms?
One could argue that they are somewhat similar, but to call them near-synonyms would be an exaggeration. I think "and" would be a poor fit here.
He was an original thinker = he had new, fresh ideas.
He was an unorthodox thinker = his ideas were quite out of the ordinary, not at all what people expected, even a bit crazy.
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L
Leeeroy
Senior Member
Polish - Poland
- Jul 28, 2021
- #12
Edinburgher said:
He was an original thinker = he had new, fresh ideas.
He was an unorthodox thinker = his ideas were quite out of the ordinary, not at all what people expected, even a bit crazy.
OK, let's use these to rewrite the sentence.
Steiner was recognized as a thinker full of ideas both new and fresh, although/if (simultaneously) out of the ordinary, a bit crazy even, and not at all what people expected.
Sorry, but I'm just not feeling it. The subordinate clause simply continues the thought expressed earlier which makes the entire structure held together by a conjunction that's supposed to introduce a novel idea fall apart. New/fresh simply doesn't clash with unusual/unexpected/crazy IMO but clearly, YMMV. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.
E
Edinburgher
Senior Member
Scotland
German/English bilingual
- Jul 28, 2021
- #13
You rewrite wouldn't inspire me to agree either, but try this:
Steiner had new but strange ideas.
Does that work any better for you? New ideas
don't needto be strange, and typically aren't. They can be (and would normally be expected to be) such as to make people think: "Oh, wow, that sounds interesting, why didn't I think of that?". But they
canbe strange and make people think: "Oh my goodness, that's that last thing I'd have thought of; it'll never work!"
Presumably the rest of the story explains how the "strange" ideas nevertheless eventually carved out a niche for themselves, so weren't that bizarre after all.
elroy
Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
Chicago, IL
US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
- Feb 14, 2023
- #14
It’s not redundant. You can be original without being unorthodox and vice versa.
An original thinker is one who does not just recycle others’ ideas but comes up with their own ideas.
An unorthodox thinker is one who defies norms, mores, customs, etc.
In a society in which women are mistreated, someone who comes up with a new way of mistreating them could be said to be an original thinker, but he wouldn’t be unorthodox, whereas someone who thinks women should not be mistreated because he’s been influenced by the ideas of societies that treat women well could be said to be an unorthodox thinker, but he wouldn’t be an original thinker because those ideas were not his own.
london calling
Senior Member
Salerno, Italy
UK English
- Feb 14, 2023
- #15
As usual, we have a sentence and no context. My initial reaction was the same as egerman's but I think that in context I may have reacted differently, so I agree with elroy.
elroy
Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
Chicago, IL
US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
- Feb 14, 2023
- #16
Yes, without context it instinctively sounds off. I had to think originally, as it were, to form a well-considered opinion. Nevertheless, I was not unorthodox in doing so.
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