an original if unorthodox thinker. (2024)

PA_System

Senior Member

Polish

  • Feb 15, 2021
  • #1

Topic sentence: Steiner was recognized as an original if unorthodox thinker.
Copied from title. Cagey, moderator

Hi,
The sentence from the thread title comes from the Cambridge dictionary; it's a sample sentence they provide when you look up the word unorthodox.

Now, I know the word if introduces contrast, the meaning of "despite being", when it's placed directly before an adjective, e.g. She was honest, if a little brutal. However, I can't see how original and unorthodox can be juxtaposed like this. Don't they actually stand for something similar?

Could you share your thoughts and shed some light on the issue?

Last edited by a moderator:

  • grassy

    Senior Member

    Warsaw

    Polish

    • Feb 15, 2021
    • #2

    I think it does expresses contrast/concession there. Original is positive and unorthodox is neutral bordering on negative.

    E

    exgerman

    Senior Member

    NYC

    US English

    • Feb 15, 2021
    • #3

    An original thinker is almost by definition unorthodox --- it's a tautology. So original if unorthodox sounds very strange

    f you are willing to say the same thing twice, you can say original and unorthodox.

    S

    serbianfan

    Senior Member

    British English

    • Feb 15, 2021
    • #4

    I don't agree that they mean more or less the same. If your idea is unorthodox, many people will find it strange and maybe disagree with it. If your idea is original, there's no such connotation.

    A

    ain'ttranslationfun?

    Senior Member

    US English

    • Feb 15, 2021
    • #5

    serbianfan said:

    I don't agree that they mean more or less the same. If your idea is unorthodox, many people will find it strange and maybe disagree with it. If your idea is original, there's no such connotation.

    I'm not sure that some — dare I say 'hidebound'? — people wouldn't find any original idea 'strange' and instinctively disagree with it. :-(

    İlham07

    New Member

    Turkish

    • Jul 28, 2021
    • #6

    Hello,I just wanted to ask what "if" means in the following sentence.

    Steiner was recognized as an original if unorthodox thinker.

    Thanks for your attention!

    cidertree

    Senior Member

    Gran Canaria

    English - exIreland

    • Jul 28, 2021
    • #7

    It means "

    even though

    /

    albeit

    ".

    İlham07

    New Member

    Turkish

    • Jul 28, 2021
    • #8

    thanks

    L

    Leeeroy

    Senior Member

    Polish - Poland

    • Jul 28, 2021
    • #9

    ...although somewhat unorthodox

    There's usually a comma before that "if" IIRC. Also, aren't original and unorthodox (near-)synonyms? Hm. Really makes me think they meant to put "and" in there but something went wrong.

    kentix

    Senior Member

    English - U.S.

    • Jul 28, 2021
    • #10

    It does seem curious. You can't be unoriginal and unorthodox.

    E

    Edinburgher

    Senior Member

    Scotland

    German/English bilingual

    • Jul 28, 2021
    • #11

    Leeeroy said:

    There's usually a comma before that "if"

    Sometimes, yes. I wouldn't go so far as to say "usually". It can be dispensed with in such short constructions as here.
    If one were to put one in, I'd argue for a second one

    after

    unorthodox, thus basically treating "if unorthodox" as a parenthetical insertion.

    Leeeroy said:

    Also, aren't original and unorthodox (near-)synonyms?

    One could argue that they are somewhat similar, but to call them near-synonyms would be an exaggeration. I think "and" would be a poor fit here.
    He was an original thinker = he had new, fresh ideas.
    He was an unorthodox thinker = his ideas were quite out of the ordinary, not at all what people expected, even a bit crazy.

    Last edited:

    L

    Leeeroy

    Senior Member

    Polish - Poland

    • Jul 28, 2021
    • #12

    Edinburgher said:

    He was an original thinker = he had new, fresh ideas.
    He was an unorthodox thinker = his ideas were quite out of the ordinary, not at all what people expected, even a bit crazy.

    OK, let's use these to rewrite the sentence.

    Steiner was recognized as a thinker full of ideas both new and fresh, although/if (simultaneously) out of the ordinary, a bit crazy even, and not at all what people expected.

    Sorry, but I'm just not feeling it. The subordinate clause simply continues the thought expressed earlier which makes the entire structure held together by a conjunction that's supposed to introduce a novel idea fall apart. New/fresh simply doesn't clash with unusual/unexpected/crazy IMO but clearly, YMMV. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

    E

    Edinburgher

    Senior Member

    Scotland

    German/English bilingual

    • Jul 28, 2021
    • #13

    You rewrite wouldn't inspire me to agree either, but try this:

    Steiner had new but strange ideas.

    Does that work any better for you? New ideas

    don't need

    to be strange, and typically aren't. They can be (and would normally be expected to be) such as to make people think: "Oh, wow, that sounds interesting, why didn't I think of that?". But they

    can

    be strange and make people think: "Oh my goodness, that's that last thing I'd have thought of; it'll never work!"

    Presumably the rest of the story explains how the "strange" ideas nevertheless eventually carved out a niche for themselves, so weren't that bizarre after all.

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)

    Chicago, IL

    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual

    • Feb 14, 2023
    • #14

    It’s not redundant. You can be original without being unorthodox and vice versa.

    An original thinker is one who does not just recycle others’ ideas but comes up with their own ideas.

    An unorthodox thinker is one who defies norms, mores, customs, etc.

    In a society in which women are mistreated, someone who comes up with a new way of mistreating them could be said to be an original thinker, but he wouldn’t be unorthodox, whereas someone who thinks women should not be mistreated because he’s been influenced by the ideas of societies that treat women well could be said to be an unorthodox thinker, but he wouldn’t be an original thinker because those ideas were not his own.

    london calling

    Senior Member

    Salerno, Italy

    UK English

    • Feb 14, 2023
    • #15

    As usual, we have a sentence and no context. My initial reaction was the same as egerman's but I think that in context I may have reacted differently, so I agree with elroy.

    elroy

    Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)

    Chicago, IL

    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual

    • Feb 14, 2023
    • #16

    Yes, without context it instinctively sounds off. I had to think originally, as it were, to form a well-considered opinion. Nevertheless, I was not unorthodox in doing so. an original if unorthodox thinker. (10)

    You must log in or register to reply here.

    an original if unorthodox thinker. (2024)

    References

    Top Articles
    Latest Posts
    Recommended Articles
    Article information

    Author: Amb. Frankie Simonis

    Last Updated:

    Views: 5644

    Rating: 4.6 / 5 (56 voted)

    Reviews: 87% of readers found this page helpful

    Author information

    Name: Amb. Frankie Simonis

    Birthday: 1998-02-19

    Address: 64841 Delmar Isle, North Wiley, OR 74073

    Phone: +17844167847676

    Job: Forward IT Agent

    Hobby: LARPing, Kitesurfing, Sewing, Digital arts, Sand art, Gardening, Dance

    Introduction: My name is Amb. Frankie Simonis, I am a hilarious, enchanting, energetic, cooperative, innocent, cute, joyous person who loves writing and wants to share my knowledge and understanding with you.